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    #16
    Originally posted by prodigy84bg View Post
    I think we can all agree that UT4 should feature the best aspects of each of the previous games, like:
    - The overall atmosphere and art style of the original Unreal Tournament
    - The amount of content of UT2004
    - The weapon balance and power-up system of UT3
    I dont agree on striving for the art style of UT99, that was far too little unique futuristic and even darker than UT3.
    No UT matches the art concept of UT3, if you see maps like Necropolis or Sandstorm in proper lightmass rendering you would probably agree that's top notch.
    I totally agree with the 2 other points, full extent of content like UT2004 should be targeted (even if Epic only prepares the core for it) and the most advanced weapon and pickups like UT3 taken to the next level.

    Originally posted by VampireJesus View Post
    ...UE4 shooter demo. It clearly offers a visual fidelity that far surpasses anything seen in UT3, while maintaining a sleek, sharp, and clean aesthetic.
    THAT is a good clean & bright art design direction, I thought aswell! Unique round & futuristic assets but not everything rusted and grungy or dark and wet.
    A good mix of both would be best imo. I really liked UT3's art design, it was just a bit too colorless, I missed the bright worlds.

    Originally posted by VampireJesus View Post
    One of my main concerns is in regards to map scaling, or rather, how the movement relates to it. Classic map layouts from U/UT99 had to be drastically up-scaled to account for UT04's movement. That isn't to say that we shouldn't have advanced movement; the added techniques give players something more to strive for, but I think we need a solution that allows maps of all size and style (from tight narrow corridors, to vast landscapes) to remain fun and playable.
    Yes, that's one major fight topic: what movement & scaling to go with?
    Not so difficult, must be good for the hardcore arena DM/Duel players, not too unrealistic looking from outside and a movement that doesnt outdodges vehicles already and gives no chance to noobs.
    I think UT3 has a perfect balance on map scale and movement values, which being more reduced than UT2004's movement is also less disadvantageous for beginners/casual players.


    @all other guys:
    try again, this is NOT the thread to post what you think of any previous UT release!
    It's the thread where UT fans of all generations respect each others favorite UT and try to find a UT concept that reunites us all!
    Last edited by TheoRiginal; 05-12-2014, 04:45 PM.

    My views on the new UT in a nutshell │ Social MarketplaceModern UT4 AllNew Dynamic StandardsMore iconic U and the 4 neededUE4 Free - I Epic

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      #17
      Originally posted by TheoRiginal View Post
      I already said it for me: DIFFERENT PRIORITIES (High grafic fidelity, most advanced functionality)
      TheoRiginal, I know Unreal Tournament 99 and 2003/2004 look like complete junk nowadays, but you should think of it in relative terms. Those games were the Crysis of their respective time... Unreal Tournament 3 was, in comparison, just a low-budget port of Gears of War visuals from X360.

      Don't worry, no one wants to a solely technical port of Doom to UE4...

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        #18
        Agree with most points, a lot of people really didn't give UT3 a chance after 2k4 as well as many UT99 fans didn't get along with UT2k3 & 2k4 earlier. It definitely isn't such a bad game as many says, it's just suffered a lot because of rushed release and "Gears of War". The audience also has changed and UT multiplayer never was friendly for newbies. I mean... UT3 is still UT, casual gamers can have much more fun playing something like CoD, where they actually can kill somebody without being so horribly murdered by more skilled players. "Black Edition" did solve a couple of problems, especially with the interface, but that was a bit too late. So... UT3 community is quite small, but it still exist and the game isn't actually dead yet.

        I've been playing UT for a long time since the first one, offline & online, and I've never really had that feel like "this UT is much worse than that UT". They're a bit different, but that's really the same game that we love. It has that's unique rhythm.

        The only way to go is to gather all the best features from UT series and make it better if possible. Something we would have to sacrifice, but conservatism is good while moderate. I think a lot of things should be optional but core gamplay must be solid, like in any UT. No way it can be an HD clone of any previous one.

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          #19
          The UT3 community never felt right. Even on populated servers I often ended up with total newbies and only a few good gamers.

          I had some really intense fights in UT3 but most of the games were full of noobs. I mean I had games in which people wouldn't jump or dodge a single time, I would follow them with the impact hammer, they wouldn't hear it being charged. Other modes like CTF and vehicle ctf were even worse, people would just walk in straight lines like bots, never jump, never use the hoverboard.
          Signature removed, over allowed size

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            #20
            Originally posted by DonkeyKong View Post
            The UT3 community never felt right. Even on populated servers I often ended up with total newbies and only a few good gamers.
            UT3 was the "same" as every other UT - same vice versa. The only problem with UT3 was the limited statisfaction of players of the old generation. UT2kx players hoped for a game as advanced as UT2kx. UT99 players hoped for a UT99 HD remake. Most of the players abandoned the game after they played the public demo. The black edition of UT3 is quite well. The menu is already polished and you can also use MapMixer for UT3 which added a complete new menu which had the complexity of UT200k, the feel of UT99 and the look of UT3. The problem with UT3, and why ...
            Originally posted by Krokussify View Post
            To me UT3 killed the franchise.
            is because of the bad success and the split community. Everything what a single community wants could be done by mutators or patches. And who knows if UT3 would have had the success of a CoD4 (which was released the same quarter/month) we would have patch 3.5 playing with Lightmassed maps, ScaleForm and DLLBind (which adds the option to create AntiCheats). I blame the older community (I was part of it but moved on).

            There is a reason why Epic didn't make a new UT retail game... hardcore fans won't buy it. At least this is irrelevant for now. Thanks Epic for all the prior games and the massive mod-ability.

            The making of UT3 (in the 1. post by the OP) is a great video to know what Epic intended with UT3.
            ] Map Scaler Tool | Betrayal for UT4 | No Spawn Protection | No Pickup Timer | BioLauncher (revived) | ForcePickupSpawn | Map cosmetics::P | Safe Spawn::P | Why numbers for Health/Armor suck!::ANALYSIS/CONCEPT
            ] UT3 Addons: NoMoreDemoGuy | PickupRespawnTweak | Mutate Spec | MutePawnSounds | NoPlayerBeacon | Epic FTW | Epic FOCK | TripodSound (... and many more)

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              #21
              I'll just add my 20 cents here because I'm not totally happy with the actual main direction this UT is going and I love UT too much for saying nothing when I have concerns.

              "A modern UT for everyone" in my sense would try to bring in the best of all previous UTs + a few new innovations and expansions + a modernised, future-proof new design.
              Every final decision should be done after various theoretical exploration and practical tests of different alternatives.

              It often feels to me like Epic is deciding too hastily before enough iterations are done (i.e. game model, game name, UT logo, ShockRifle concept, etc.) and doing changes for changes sake (i.e. breaking with the useful and classic UT HUD layout, double-jump, dodge-jump, etc.). Besides the critical financial and development model, the approach to just throw over everything later UTs did so far and start newly with the only intention to "keep it more UT99-like" is very questionable.

              It's like Epic admitting the changes and innovations the newer UTs did were all bad decisions, nothing to keep or learn from, which quite the opposite is the case!
              Every UT that came out was overall better than it's predecessors! Neglecting this fact can only be achieved by complete fanatism for one release or the lack of flexibility to move on.
              • UT99 started the whole thing and has thatfor the most impact till today. It brought the biggest innovations like bringing us the classic UT weapon arsenal, the various level designs and a first freedom of movement with dodges additionally to jumps.
              • UT2k3/4 expanded the movement for more freedom, added a more immersive tournament character and unreal faction background context. It has the biggest extent and even introduced vehicles in an experimental stage.
              • UT3 brought back a more grounded movement (sadly with cutting the dodge-jump entirely instead of just reducing it compared to UT2k3/4) and improved weapon/vehicle balances and vehicle usage to a high degree.

              The next UT should imo be an expansion and improvement of UT3, a next gen UT4 based on all good things from UT3 and previous UTs and changed in all aspects that even UT3 fans are critical about. Just like UT2004 was the polishment and expansion of UT2003.

              Starting all over - based only on UT99 with a strongly split UT fan community of 3 UT generations + modern, non-UT gamers to be attracted - is a much riskier experiment than trying to expand and to fix the highest evolved UT model so far together with all 3 UT gens.

              It's amazing how much Epic listens and accepts what the community brings up. But it's like someone wrote so correctly on this forum once: you should collect all feedback and think of what's behind it rather than trying to follow the majority of wishes. Please dont underestimate the wrong image the community has of UT3 and see the many great improvements you realised in UT2004 and UT3.
              Last edited by TheoRiginal; 12-27-2014, 11:01 PM.

              My views on the new UT in a nutshell │ Social MarketplaceModern UT4 AllNew Dynamic StandardsMore iconic U and the 4 neededUE4 Free - I Epic

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                #22
                All you need to do is revamp {UT2K4}. The movement in this game is like no other. the double taping dodging makes you feel like your part of the game. this is what UT3 missed

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                  #23
                  The biggest difference between 99, 2k*, and 3 was movement, and it's what mainly splits the player base - I would think that adding each release's movement set-ups in as mutators or something. It might not be ideal, but the next release will do better if 99, 2k4, and 3 fans were all playing the same release, even if not the same style servers.

                  I've played them all, loved them all.... Don't worry about your play style not being popular, this was my favorite server set up, only caught on with a hand full of people.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz0DnP7wXnU

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by RattleSN4K3 View Post
                    (...) Everything what a single community wants could be done by mutators or patches. And who knows if UT3 would have had the success of a CoD4 (which was released the same quarter/month) we would have patch 3.5 playing with Lightmassed maps, ScaleForm and DLLBind (which adds the option to create AntiCheats). I blame the older community (I was part of it but moved on).

                    There is a reason why Epic didn't make a new UT retail game... hardcore fans won't buy it.
                    I wouldn't blame a whole part of a community. The blame, IMHO, falls into specific parts who whine and claim to be bigger than they really are: the single game purists/fanboys/purists-elitists (not only UT99, but also UT2004 as well), the most annoying bunch of the whole, because of how vocal and ungrateful they are, and because they will never EVER be happy with anything outside of the game they like. Not even with a remake of such game.
                    Unreal Wiki - Collecting Unreal lore, one article at a time.
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                      #25
                      Originally posted by TheoRiginal View Post
                      the approach to just throw over everything later UTs did so far and start newly with the only intention to "keep it more UT99-like" is very questionable.
                      It's important to keep in mind that UT99 was, by far, the most successful UT of the series by a very wide margin. UT3 didn't even have 0.1% of UT99's total amount of activity over time. UT3 was a gigantic failure compared to UT99. Therefore, the standard should be UT99--go with a proven winner.

                      What, specifically, are you so dissatisfied about? UT3's basic game play, feel, and movement wasn't all that different from UT99. The big differences in this franchise are between UT99 / UT3 and UT 2003 / 2004.

                      Can you elaborate on how you think the game play and feel of the current pre-Alpha differs from that of UT3? I think it feels pretty similar. My biggest gripe is that it's not simply an exact copy of the game play, feel, and movement from UT99.
                      UT4 CTF Maps: CTF-Whiplash | CTF-Sidewinder | CTF-Highpoint | CTF-Hardcore | CTF-Tubes-Of-Spam

                      UT99 CTF Maps: CTF-DagnysBigAssMap-V2 | CTF-Dagnys-P****WhIpPeD | CTF-Dagnys-Dark-Delight-LE102 | CTF-Dagnys-Tubes-Of-Spam

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by WHIPperSNAPper View Post
                        It's important to keep in mind that UT99 was, by far, the most successful UT of the series by a very wide margin. UT3 didn't even have 0.1% of UT99's total amount of activity over time. UT3 was a gigantic failure compared to UT99. Therefore, the standard should be UT99--go with a proven winner.
                        I know this is frequently brought up, but there is absolutely no proof of this. There are many factors that played into the success/failure of UT sequels. It's impossible to attribute it to one specific thing. The fact there was less competition all around in 1999 alone could make up the entirety of the difference. It's not like any UT game we are aware of was a retail failure (even UT3).

                        There has also been big differences in how players are actually counted and many different systems for counting players over the years. All we know is that UT has a larger (albeit far from "vanilla") player base right now, something that doesn't seem to mean much for a game that has been on deep discount several times and has no copy protection to speak of. I'm not saying those are why it's successful necessarily, but those points are evidence that it's pretty hard to extrapolate gameplay variables that work from the current popularity of UT.

                        It may also be worth pointing out that UT3 has an 83/100 Metacritic rating and 91% of the reviews on Steam are positive. So it's not that bad of a game generally speaking.
                        Last edited by Sir_Brizz; 12-28-2014, 11:07 PM.
                        HABOUJI! Ouboudah! Batai d'va!
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                          #27
                          Originally posted by WHIPperSNAPper View Post
                          It's important to keep in mind that UT99 was, by far, the most successful UT of the series by a very wide margin. UT3 didn't even have 0.1% of UT99's total amount of activity over time. UT3 was a gigantic failure compared to UT99. Therefore, the standard should be UT99--go with a proven winner.

                          What, specifically, are you so dissatisfied about? UT3's basic game play, feel, and movement wasn't all that different from UT99. The big differences in this franchise are between UT99 / UT3 and UT 2003 / 2004.

                          Can you elaborate on how you think the game play and feel of the current pre-Alpha differs from that of UT3? I think it feels pretty similar. My biggest gripe is that it's not simply an exact copy of the game play, feel, and movement from UT99.
                          Well the first paragraph is only your wild assumption, what do you base your claims on? Only Epic has the facts which UT was more profitable and even if that was UT99, it wouldn't make it the better UT to base a new UT in 2015 upon. It's dated by now in so many ways the newer UTs improved already! UT99 was the first, for that reason alone it's already understandable it's having the biggest impact, many fans over time and for its uniqueness having a lot of hardcore fanatics who wouldn't move on with a next UT undergoing too much advancement.

                          That precisely happened with UT in its 2003/2004 version already, the movement got largely expanded with the double-jump, the dodge-jump and the wall-jump variations of them. It was quite a bit exaggerated in jump force (floatyness) but the more free movement was certainly an advance! So were the vehicles, which came in as a later expansion and still a bit in an experimental stage. Weapon power balance is a bit off in both UT99 (i.e. sniper OP) and UT2kx (i.e. shock OP). The community was already splitted, the hardcore UT99 fans didn't move on but a lot of players who started with UT200x became hardcore fans for this release.

                          UT3 - I can only guess - aimed to build a bridge with a movement which is much more grounded and less floaty again, cuts dodge-jump but gives a good air control and keeps double-jump and walldodges. If they kept a grounded dodge-jump (like we use nowadays in european UT3 vCTF and BTA servers) it would be an even better movement compromise imo. But it probably didn't succeed in winning both UT generations for itself mainly because hardcore fans are generally too fanatic to move on and of course due to UT3's major bugs and problems on release and a lot of missing extent UT2004 offered. For some hardcore older UT fans the much higher level of detail in UT3 can be reason alone enough, but people who didn't move on to it for such reason will also not move on to a UT4 that's not exactly just a HD remake of their old UT release which even the actual "start new based only on UT99" direction wont bring them.

                          What I'm not happy about is all said in my last post, like throwing over everything the newer UTs did instead of fixing and expanding the newest, most advanced UT model. The pre-alpha doesn't feel like any previous UT so far imo (most like UT99 being inflexible and very limited in movement) and the general direction we're heading broke with most of what was amazing in or about previous UTs. Bad financial and no hobby dev model, precipitous official decisions, changes for changes sake and prospects like vCTF as it is in UT3 (the highest, most advanced form of modern UT gameplay imo), possibly not even being part of the new stock UT extent, makes me all pretty concerned.

                          In fact, most of the active UT3 players I know fear UT4 won't ever come close to UT3's advancedness and extent. And they all know of UT3's many flaws and limited extent (compared to UT2004) and hoped eagerly for a long-awaited upgrade.
                          Since the day UDK came out showing UE's progress already we hoped...
                          Then UE4 was released and it was still "no new UT planned", untill after some of us decided to try creating a "spiritual successor" of UT ourselves on UE4.
                          The reception of our intention was great (a new UT was eagerly-awaited among fans ofc) and apparently changed Epic's mind to trying to create an official new UT together with us, the UT fan community.


                          Long story short: Epic should know and believe in how much they improved UT already and continue with improvements and expansion instead of scratching all and starting over again as a blind flight experiment. Better a polished and expanded UT4 based on UT3 than another even less extended UT that tries to go too classic and breaks with all improvements and the real great UT traditions nevertheless.
                          Last edited by TheoRiginal; 12-29-2014, 02:30 AM. Reason: fishing typos out

                          My views on the new UT in a nutshell │ Social MarketplaceModern UT4 AllNew Dynamic StandardsMore iconic U and the 4 neededUE4 Free - I Epic

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                            #28
                            in my opinion ctf wise UT3 was best. it was not shock or sniper dominated as 2K4/UT. offered a better weapon balance(except the OP bio) where almost every weapon had its good use. It also had a better movement system then UT, but didn't have the stupid shieldgun from 2k4. impact hammer jumps were similar to UT1, where 2k4 shield dodge jumps only make players suffer a 20hp loss, which is ridiculous. overall it was a fine middle ground.

                            ofc it took time until it was patched and really good maps were released.

                            many duelers also told it was best for duel.

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                              #29
                              I liked CTF in UT3 except for the horrendous TL switch times.
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                                #30
                                Originally posted by peterk View Post
                                in my opinion ctf wise UT3 was best. it was not shock or sniper dominated as 2K4/UT. offered a better weapon balance(except the OP bio) where almost every weapon had its good use. It also had a better movement system then UT, but didn't have the stupid shieldgun from 2k4. impact hammer jumps were similar to UT1, where 2k4 shield dodge jumps only make players suffer a 20hp loss, which is ridiculous. overall it was a fine middle ground.

                                ofc it took time until it was patched and really good maps were released.

                                many duelers also told it was best for duel.
                                UT3's CTF was broken from the release and is sadly not the best of the series. This is mainly due to design problems with the translocator. This is always a sensitive topic, but imo that is one of the main reasons UT3's CTF failed. I personally thought overall UT3 was an excellent game. Although the bugs at release were disappointing, I think too many people use the bugs as a scapegoat for why they don't enjoy UT3. "UT4" is never going to be successful if an already divided player base can't get along and thus can't welcome any new comers.
                                Join us for friendly UT4 Pugs at irc.globalgamers.net #ut4pugs

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