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Can the AFPS genre survive without classes or character progression?

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  • Can the AFPS genre survive without classes or character progression?

    Gonna be a long read...

    I really think Epic and this community need to take a good hard look at what makes a successful game in todays market. Quake added classes, for better or worse, I think its fair to say that giving players variety in their characters and play style is a very important piece of modern day video games. People want a tailored experience, they want to use characters and weapons that best suit their play style and needs. Back in the late 90s early 2000s, video games were all about skill. The more skill you had the better you were at the game. Sometime around 2007-2008 that changed with games like COD. No longer were players playing to improve their skill, now they were playing to improve their character. Leveling up, unlocking new weapons, adding stat points just about every popular game has some sort of character leveling system. It makes sense though, it makes games more approachable to new players, no longer do you need pure skill to do well, now you just need to level up. Sure pure skill is still a top upgrade for any game, however not everyone has pure skill.

    I know a lot of people here will say they love UT for the fact that everyone is on the same playing field. It doesnt matter if you are a 20 year veteran or a 1st week noob, you have access to the exact same weapons, character and abilities. The truth is, its not even at all. UT is about the most uneven playing field game out right now because skill and experience are the ultimate character leveling. People like to say, just play more and you will get better and that is true to an extent. But the reality is a lot of UT players will never be "good" at the game. This isnt a lack of trying, its the same as any sport. Some people are just born with faster reflexes, better eye sight or a higher drive to improve or excel. Some kids will train ever day to be in the NFL and never make it past low level college football. Nothing they could have really done more, they just werent born with the right skills to do well in football.

    Now does that mean we should say UT isnt for you, go find another game? How well is that mentality going to work out? If we look at other Arena FPS games like Reflex, Toxikk and the handful of other recently or past popular arena fps games that stick to the old formula, what can we say about them? To me, they look dead. Are they bad games? I dont think so, most of the people here seem to have great things to say about Reflex or Toxikk, but then how come the servers are empty? How come new players arent jumping into these new AFPS games? What will UT have that these other games wont? Is it content alone? Is it finding that magic balance point between armors, weapons, movement? Lets be honest, even UT99 had its balance issues, so I really cant see it being that. I think the issue is simple, people dont want to play the old style of Arena FPS games anymore. At least not enough to support a large esports title/game.

    If you think about it, its very hard to name any popular online games that dont have a class, character leveling system or some sort of character customization that effects how the player plays the game. Even CSGO falls into this category, Im using this as an example because people love to point out how CSGO is pretty much the same game as it was back in 2000's. And this is true, however CSGO allows players to pick and plan out their match experience with the purchasing of weapons, ammo, armor, secondaries. A player can say, im gonna snipe in the back and build their character for that match around that particular play style. Overwatch obviously does this in that some players want to be stealthy, some players want high damage, some players want to be support. It has something for everyone. A player can be bad at shooting and killing but still be good at the game and be a positive impact to their team.

    Ill be honest, I enjoy the leveling up experience. It allows me to feel like Im improving in a manner beyond KD ratio or ELO rank. I especially enjoy games where I can tailor my leveling to my playing experience. I personally think the class based Arena FPS genre with the addition of Quake Champions is a saturated market. I think its also riding the tail-end of that markets popularity. TF2 made in popular, OW made it a house hold name and now with the addition of Quake, its a pretty full house. One of the things that seems to make esports games popular is for the ability of the spectators to understand and follow the game players strategies. Going back to football, why is it so popular in America? Is it the average of 20 minutes of actual game play in a 2 hour long game? Doubtful. Americans love football because they love armchair spectating/analyzing it, which is further supported by the popularity of Fantasy Football leagues. The truth is, with most major Esport titles thats what makes them esports. The spectators. People wont want to watch UT4 because its a dizzying mess that only makes sense to those with a lot of experience playing it. There are no real hard stats to look at in UT and say this is why one team one over another. There arent really even any sort of organized way to watch a match and break down the game play. So much of UT is just brute pure skill and over powering the opposing team that the analyzing is not something easily understood. Epic has struggled with this issue for 3 years now, trying to find a way to allow spectators to be more involved and understanding of who wins and why.

    I think UT needs to change what it has historically been. I think UT needs 2 major parts if it is to stand a chance of being more than a niche market with a few hundred/thousand players. Its needs to be a game that someone with minimal experience can understand. A game where someone casting the game can easily explain characters/play styles and advantages vs disadvantages to the average viewer. It needs to be a game where someone can instantly look at a CTF match and know this guy is defending, where they can then look at the said player and look at individual stats he uses to improve his defending abilities. People need to be able to evaluate and compare different players in an easy yet meaningful way. It also needs to be a game where players can more easily understood their role in a match. A new player jumping into CTF in a public server is basically going to play DM. He is playing a team based game mode with no idea how or where he fits into the team.

    Now I know Epic has put a lot of effort into Flagrun/Blitz to create a more spectator friendly UT game mode. And while Blitz is turning into an alright game mode for spectators, it doesnt capture the excitement or thrill of playing with an actual team, with actual roles and positions. In Blitz you are either attacking or defending as a team. Whole team move the flag forward or whole team prevent the flag from moving forward. In this sense anyone can drop into the game and have an easy enough time figuring out what they need to do from a team perspective. Everyone on your team plays the same role. This IMO is the part that Epic got wrong with Blitz. There are no special positions to learn, you cant practice defense skills, or cover skills, or really even flag running skills. The game mode is one massive tug of war battle, the team that shoots and kills the most will win and all the shooting and killing is centralized around 1 location on the map at a time.

    Unreal Tournament in the Arena FPS genre has always been king of CTF. Quake was the duel/dm champion and UT was the CTF champion. I really feel Epic needs to take another look at CTF and instead of saying "This game mode is not spectator friendly what else can we make?" they should instead say "How can we make CTF more spectator friendly while keeping the aspects of the game mode that made it so popular in the first place?".

    The first part I think UT CTF needs is team position assignments. There is an ideal way to play CTF with 10 players that is most enjoyable and provides the best all around experience. Too many players on D and the opposing offense gets frustrated, too many players on Offense and the flag is never home, no one covering mid makes getting powerups a challenge. Ideally CTF plays best with 2 dedicated defenders, 1 dedicated middle man to float and 2 dedicated offensive players. As of right now, if you watch a pug match this is nearly impossible to understand. The only way a spectator will understand what position someone is playing is if they watch that person play long enough to realize they arent grabbing the flag, they are grabbing the flag or they are supporting middle. Even then, as soon as you switch players, its not easy to quickly understand again the same players position without knowing more about the player. If you play in a public match its just a free for all. 1 minute a guys is on D, the next hes on O then back to D etc. Its impossible to follow and for new players its impossible to know where you belong in a team or what you can best do to support the team better.

    My first idea to improve CTF is that players will set a position preference ranking them in order. So Offense, Defense or Support. Next each CTF game will default to the 2+1+2 design. 2 defenders, 1 support and 2 offense. When a player joins a match, they are added to their first preference position, if the position is filled they are moved to their next available position. Players with the highest ELO get priority. So if 2 players that are green 9 and 6 are Defense and a Gold 1 Defense player joins, the lowest ELO ranked Green will get punted down. This will help ensure that every player is in their ideal and preferred position. It might not seem fair at first because maybe a noob wants to play Defense but hes been put on offense, well thats sorta the problem with public CTF matches right now. They are often way 1 sided because players are playing positions they arent qualified to play. As a player gets better, their ELO rank will improve and so will their ability to play the position they want to play. However the biggest thing to remember is that now is that every CTF player in a match knows the position they need to play and what they need to do to win. It gives them a team purpose not just a KD/Win purpose. We can add player Tags that say Offense, Defense, Support and anyone watching the match will instantly be able to tell if the player they are watching is properly playing D or Offense and allow easy commenting on that. Further more scoring will be dictated by position to reward players for properly playing their position. If you are on defense and capture a flag, you dont get the same amount of points someone on offense gets for capturing a point. Likewise an offensive player killing an enemy FC doesnt get the same points as a defensive player. Or an offensive player grabbing a flag gives points where a defensive player grabbing a flag doesnt. Support gets more points for collecting power ups and providing assist cover to the FC. This will further ensure that someone doesnt get an offensive position and play D because their progression in the game will be much slower.

    Secondly, player development. I know this is the taboo subject for UT but it really shouldnt be. The gaming world has changed a lot from 1999 and if we want to see UT and AFPS return to the top of the field, it needs to be aligned with current trends and game play. As I said before I am not really a fan of the class system like QC. I feel its too locked in and in many cases not fair. Classes are too much of a divide in the players and the play style. They completely strip AFPS of the balance that can be given with experience and raw skill, having a character that can do a special move and instantly do 100+ damage is comparable to an OP flak cannon. You are also still being forced to tailor the way you play, to the abilities of the character. I think our characters should be reflections of the way we as individuals play the game. I think UT should have a skill matrix of stat points that can be added to characters. Players can build characters in the same manner that you build a character in WOW. Every new character starts with a base stat level, say 25 out of a possible 100 points. A new character creator is used to add stat points to fields that the creator deems worthy. Things like Speed, Jump Height, Dodge distance, health, armor, ammo. Then each time a character levels they are given 1 more stat point to use until they max out at 100. Now at 100, not every stat will be maxed, one build might have max speed but low health or another more ammo but slow speed. This will give players infinite possibilities to build a character that suits their needs and reinforces the reward mechanic and leveling mechanic that all gamers are used to now. These stat changes would be very minimal. Something like if you maxed out a stat, the player would be at most 5% better in that stat, not enough to drastically change a character but enough to give them a slight advantage in the right situation. Players can purchase additional characters to build a pure offense character or pure defense character and switch them out as wanted prior to a match starting. This now allows spectators to further analyze and evaluate the strategies of teams, commentators can speculate and all this additional information be given, improving the overall experience as an esports title.

    If you made it this far thank you. This thread isnt intended as a UT will fail if X, its merely my observations and thoughts on the current state of gaming, Arena FPS and the current state of Unreal Tournament. I could be entirely wrong and UT just the way it is could make a comeback into the forefront of FPS gaming. However the longer this project and others like it go on and failure to see success out of any game so far has me worried for the future of the genre and games that continue the old style of FPS gaming. I am sure some very talented players will respond with things like NO, game doesnt need that. But its important to remember that being at the top, makes it look easy and its one of those mentalities that well if I did it, so can anyone else, but that doesnt bring in players. UT needs players to succeed and as of right now, it doesnt have them. Sure weapon balance and armor are a issues, but realistically balancing those further will make it harder for new players to join in. Id say im average player with probably above average hitscan from years of IG, but even I need to slum down and use flak or rockets right now to beat higher level players. Im worried that this game isnt holding the interest of new players not because of weapons or ugly looking maps, but because the game play itself is no longer desired among the newer generation of gamers. Anyone here who thinks UT can survive without a large influx of new 15-20 year old AFPS players is just kidding themselves. No way this group of 30+ year old family men can support UT4 like we did when we were 15-20.


    EDIT: Just saw this article, relates very well to the topic. http://esports-marketing-blog.com/es...ay-game-watch/

    Three key takeaways of the blog post are as follows:
    • LoL, CS:GO, and Dota 2 have the most developed and watched esports scenes
    • 42% of eSports viewers don’t play the game they watch
    • 70% of fans only watch one franchise (LoL, CS:GO, HearthStone, Overwatch or Dota2)
    Last edited by PayBack; 05-15-2017, 04:13 PM.
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  • #2
    I also think that UT should evolve. The skill points are good idea. I would like something as World of tanks model, it's basically arena fps with tanks. So some skill trees for champions to improve their statistics and guns statistics, such as faster reload on sniper or faster fire rate on pulse etc.

    The point is that average players want to play to make some progress or grind for something. There is no reason to play 6 hours a day same 5 maps over and over, maybe you will get better but you as new player have to face skillers with 15 years of experience so no chance to ever catch up. Meanwhile if you would grind for some levels or skill points which would give you some bonuses than you would at least feel some progress.

    The problem is of course the population, there is difference if top skillers are 50% of population here or 1% like in normally populated games. Pure skill based games have hard times these days, there need to be some flavour for casuals and noobs to keep them interested.

    Comment


    • #3
      Well i read it all.

      We all love UT and this is why we all follow the project closely, and I understand we all have concerns about how it will do in the current market. We want it to succeed and if possible bring it back to the popularity it raised.
      You are right that the gaming market changed a lot beetwen 1999 and today. Yet I disagree strongly that AFPS games closer to the style of 90s FPS can't find a place in our current market. I just believe that nobody was able to find the "right" thing. After all, before certain genre became popular, they needed something to raise that popularity right ? As an exemple, League of Legends contributed enormously to the rising of the MOBA genre. An other exemple is that Overwatch helped a lot to bring back class based FPS, despite it being present for a long time with TF2, which is/was a pinnacle of that genre after all. I'm definitely confident that the same can happen with AFPS. However most of those that tried so far lacked the "thing" that would attract players.
      From my point of view Toxikk may be well done gameplay wise, it's design and art style feels bland and uninspired. Reflex seems like a nice Quake clone, but the art is too simplistic for my test and I haven't seen anything new. And both honestly lacked a good marketing. I would probably never heard of these games if I wasn't following closely news about AFPS.
      So it's all about finding that sweet spot.

      But I agree that UT will need certain feature that most players seems to enjoy. The idea of the leveling is already there, it just need more addition and refinement. It, however, can totally without any skill progression or any gameplay changing effect, which I'm strongly against. And you can find game that does without it. Overwatch gives you only cosmetics, reskins, spray and tons of other goodies that doesn't affect the gameplay, yet gives rewards that keep the interest of the players and gives them the desire to continue playing.
      I aslo agree that UT cruelly needs a "noob friendly" mode that they can follow and have fun watching. I still advocate for Bombing Run, as it already features a lot of what people enjoy in real life sport. CTF is still a tad bit too... unatractive in my opinion. Blitz is a nice attempt, but I believe it's not exactly on the right spot either.
      I'm entirely in accord with your "tag" suggestion (I was thinking of it before I finished to read your post ). A lot of game can currently use quick voice commands to give orders and/or tell what you're planning to do. UT needs it, with basic things as "I'm on offense" (The series had it) with an icon on top of the player currently calling visible to all it's friends, so they can adapt quickly without the need to be in an organized team. That icon will stay until the player call for another role. We can even start with basic things : A shield for defense, a sword for offense, flag/ball/objective for carrier, an arrow for roamer or bodyguard, etc... even when it's not tied to a specific "role" you can use icons, the most used in any MP game being the cross when in need of healing. Just with that features, I'm certain it will be a lot more comfortable without needing to restrict the player to something. I'm not in favor of the decrease in points/experience.
      I also thing giving a preparation time (which is different from the warmup time), to let even random and premade prepare their strategy would be a good feature. Let like 1-2 minutes where the team can see zoomed minimap where they can place their names with an icon (to show roles and where they're going, draw, etc... so they can organize.
      The spectators would be able to see the entirety of these things, so they can keep track of what each team is doing.

      I'm certain just these thing will make UT a lot more attractive and easier to cast without needing to completely rework it into "another" class FPS. Indeed it will still need a lot more than that to appeal, but we're still early in it's development. I'm still waiting for full invasion you know ? . That actually one of the other major strength of UT : modding and mapping capacity. There was, and I do hope there will be, a lot of contents created that were vastly different, be it from Epic themselves or the community. But this sort of thing takes time.


      Sorry if my rambling is a mess. I often just straight up write what comes to my mind without any organisation. hope it wasn't to painfull to read.

      Comment


      • #4
        I dream of an Assault mode with vehicles, and passives based on your race ( necris, skaarj, human etc.).
        Imagine driving with vehicles to a fortress, while avril shots fly by your head. Snipers hunting anyone out open, and you know 10 guys with flaks are behind the door you have to blow up.
        Check the Hybrid Rocket L. Here:https://www.epicgames.com/unrealtour...ed​​​​

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Darkloser View Post
          The idea of the leveling is already there, it just need more addition and refinement. It, however, can totally without any skill progression or any gameplay changing effect, which I'm strongly against. And you can find game that does without it. Overwatch gives you only cosmetics, reskins, spray and tons of other goodies that doesn't affect the gameplay, yet gives rewards that keep the interest of the players and gives them the desire to continue playing.
          Thanks for the full read, i agree with just about everything you said. However this part I dont. Leveling is to allow a player to customize their character to the way they play, similar to how players chooses classes that best suit their play style. You used OW as an example of a game that doesnt use leveling, however it does use a simpler method of leveling and thats classes. Leveling is just a more refined version of Classes. Classes are predetermined fully leveled characters. So to say OW is a great example of a game without skill progression is not entirely accurate as it just skips the individual leveling part and provides you the direct end results. There is no difference between leveling a character to be a heavy, slow, high armor character or just selecting that character class. The only difference is the route it takes to get to the finished product.
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          • #6
            That's where I believe you're wrong. If I take World of tank, or Etrenal crusade, or even most MMORPG games (some even have shooter elements), there's a huge gap beetwen what a new player has compared to what an older player already possess on a same class. I play a support and can only heal one person at a time, it takes one to two seconds, and I need to be close. Elsewhere my ally can just launch a beacon that heals in an AoE, start the first healing wave immediatly and as a little flavor can give bonus (like damage or resistance). Or the enemy can do the same as my allies. That is far, far different from just choosing a class that already has a basic loadout that nobody can change in any way. And I'm not even talking about weapons or other stuff differences, if it's not the classes that are straight up locked... One let you play on an even field immediatly, while the other just makes you grind to get on an acceptable level.
            So no, classes in OW or Lawbreakers if you want another exemple is different than character progression.

            And outside of that, it will actually remove that aspect (that you already mentioned) of the AFPS genre that is that everybody start with an equal playing field outside of skill, which should be adjusted with a MMR. We're just too low on pop to do it properly right now. You said it, I said it, there's already a good choice on class based or progression based games. If I wanted to play that I would look at all these games, that's not what I'm curently looking for. I want a fresh games with still the core elements of AFPS games, and UT is a good candidate to achieve it...




            Also UT is waifu...

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Darkloser View Post
              That's where I believe you're wrong. If I take World of tank, or Etrenal crusade, or even most MMORPG games (some even have shooter elements), there's a huge gap beetwen what a new player has compared to what an older player already possess on a same class. I play a support and can only heal one person at a time, it takes one to two seconds, and I need to be close. Elsewhere my ally can just launch a beacon that heals in an AoE, start the first healing wave immediatly and as a little flavor can give bonus (like damage or resistance). Or the enemy can do the same as my allies. That is far, far different from just choosing a class that already has a basic loadout that nobody can change in any way. And I'm not even talking about weapons or other stuff differences, if it's not the classes that are straight up locked... One let you play on an even field immediatly, while the other just makes you grind to get on an acceptable level.
              So no, classes in OW or Lawbreakers if you want another exemple is different than character progression.

              And outside of that, it will actually remove that aspect (that you already mentioned) of the AFPS genre that is that everybody start with an equal playing field outside of skill, which should be adjusted with a MMR. We're just too low on pop to do it properly right now. You said it, I said it, there's already a good choice on class based or progression based games. If I wanted to play that I would look at all these games, that's not what I'm curently looking for. I want a fresh games with still the core elements of AFPS games, and UT is a good candidate to achieve it...




              Also UT is waifu...
              I dont agree. You are right in the World of Tank that those level unlocks you speak of are a massive difference between players. But no such massive difference would there be in UT. There are no abilities or special moves and there wouldnt be. The difference between leveled and level players with be rather minimal, but enough to give the higher level player a minor edge in specific situations when they build their characters for those situations. If UT had a level system and say you spent all your points giving your character the max 100 points of speed. Ideally the speed boost increase would be no more than 5%. However the rest of the players stats would suffer because of that. I dont want character progression that unlocks special abilities, just something to give a player a tiny little edge and something to work for. Maybe one player builds a character with 5% further dodge, this allows him to more easily make a trick jump that a non leveled player would have a more difficult time with. Those are the tiny leveling schemes im talking about. Not some major special ability unlock.
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              • #8
                i don't think UT needs any gimmicks or character progression/unlocks

                if you look at overwatch, they have a competitive matchmaking/ladder system that works well, though not without flaws
                and people go bonkers for the locked content - skins, guns, emotes, etc.

                i think even if just those things were done well, UT would be in a good place

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think we should all reflect on this post. I would not know if it's what I want for the UT future, but maybe it's what we need for its success ...

                  +1 PayBack

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                  • #10
                    I really don’t think that UT needs to have classes or character progression to become a successful game. I also do not think that UT will be successful if it turns out to be just another UT game powered by the latest Unreal Engine.

                    To become successful, I think Epic Games needs to turn UT into a gaming phenomenon. The goal shouldn’t be to just create another Unreal Tournament game powered by the latest Unreal Engine. It should really be about creating an exciting combat experience that is going to be spectacular to both watch and play. And if that means changing the gameplay, so be it.

                    The type of game that all the kids in high school are going to talk about and want to play together after school. It needs to become that FPS game that gamers absolutely need to play at LAN parties to have a blast, because it’s totally crazy and easy to get into. Gamers will know that when they play UT, incredible things happen, it’s like watching a great never ending action film.

                    Also, Epic Games needs to make sure that it’s quick and easy to share/download content.
                    Last edited by Flakality; 05-16-2017, 01:46 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think that the right way to introduce class based system in UT that will not break things would be through vehicles. For example - support vehicles that have the skill to heal or supply ammo, vehicles that are good at repairing ... etc.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Actually I was previously thinking about UT, the future, the competence, and the current ways of gameplay mechanisms.

                        Classes, though they'd be weird to imagine or implement, while it could kill the AFPS historical genre out of the series, in favor of more people to get know this game itself. I'd think about perhaps taking some ideas from the Unreal 1 creatures, along with many of the UT clans when making classes.

                        I'd enable the following class only in team-based gamemodes:

                        Nalis: can carry any item they pick up, and only one at a time. (They'd prove very useful for when a flag carrier, a defender or mid player needs health packs, armor, weapons, udamage, belt, ammo, etc...)

                        The rest are more like nany ways to add some extra offensive/defensive maneuverability:

                        Skaarjs: can damage on dodge (claw-dodging) and melee claw attack as weapon 1.
                        Juggernauts: start with Impact Hammer as weapon 1, can knockback on dodge, less affected by any enemy knocking back/up/aside. Also pancakes/telefrags easier.
                        Blood Reavers: start with Chainsaw (from UT99's mutator) as weapon 1, receive half damage when inflicting self damage (all aboard the weapon jumping train! I'd hop up on that, lol).
                        Necris: when a teammate receives damage they heal themselves a small percentage, when exploding the enemy into gibs they heal a flat small amount.
                        Thunder Crash: start with dual Enforcer. Lightning Gun charges 1/3 faster for them and instakills on-hit.
                        Cyborgs: start with Shield Gun as weapon 1, replenish a small percentage of ammo after killing. They can also use feign death to turn themselves into a proximity bomb.
                        Raw Steel: start with extra 25 armor, receive 50% less damage from first headshot. 33% faster weapon swap.

                        As you can see, I didn't mention extra abilities to activate in there, only extra advantages. Maybe some are way too much advantage, but everything has to have a start from somewhere, some could even end up into something entirely different. The only one that alters playstyle further is the Nali, because he needs a button to drop item, and another one to use it.
                        Last edited by Arkl1te; 05-16-2017, 04:56 AM.
                        If I could ever grab myself an Unreal remake, with more vegetation, like trees, actual grass, better sky, and a sh1t ton of doodads... a freaking Skaarj to rip and tear my body apart...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          PayBack, even if they aren't huge, an advantage is still an advantage, no matter how you put it. A new player with no perks will be outmatched by one with perks even the additions are minimal.

                          SnowballWr, UT3 had some support vehicles in Warfare : the Nightshade for the Necris and the Stealthbender for Axon/Humans. They could deploy various traps and devices to help their allies.

                          Arkl1te, there was a mutator in UT2k3/2k4 that gave each species unique stats (Species Statistics was the name). I wouldn't mind this kind of thing come back as a mutator again for fun. But I wouldn't like being forced to choose beetwen playstyle and character look for normal modes. For exemple what should I do if I like the beefy Juggernauts, yet I play on agility and mobility ? I'll have an issue here.


                          Speaking of character, there is something that UT could work on and could actually draw players without necessarly affecting gameplay. Attractive and charismatic characters.
                          If you look at what the current games are aiming for, they often gives a lot of backstory and personality to the people present in the game. Or at least a lot of customization so the player actually feel that he's playing something impressive, not just Mister EverydayLife. I know Epic isn't working much on that front yet, but it's one of the thing that will definitely add to the attractiveness of the game.
                          And UT can do it. We already have these important figures : Malcom, Xan, Gorge, Anubis just to name a few... and of course my beloved MIIIISTER CROOOOOW !

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Darkloser View Post
                            PayBack, even if they aren't huge, an advantage is still an advantage, no matter how you put it. A new player with no perks will be outmatched by one with perks even the additions are minimal.
                            Yup, there will definitely be some advantage, but no more of an advantage that one user gets for unlocking a character class at X level over A level. I also see the reward of keeping people playing longer as a net positive for the players themselves and the game as a whole. Put a new player into the game and watch them get stomped for a few weeks, good chance they will quit. Put a new player into the game and watch them get stomped for a few weeks but they can see them selves leveling and increasing their players abilities and they will stick around longer, which in turn will increase their natural skills and experience with the game, making them even better. So instead of improving at a rate of 1x they are now improving at a rate of 2x.
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                            • #15
                              Or it will worsen the effect.

                              I played games with progression, and getting your backside getting stomped just because the opponent have a straight up upgrade or advantage but not much more experience in the game is just infuriating more than anything else. I'm generally patient enough to go further, but I don't necessarly enjoy it, and there is time where I just quitted and never came back.
                              Classes is totally different. You don't get an upgrade, you play completely differently. One typical character is the beefy/tank one : he is more resistant (higher hp/armor/shield) and can endure a lot, sometimes hit hard as well or get you pinned. BUT to counteract these strength he will be slower and bigger, making it one hell of an easy target, and that you can kite. He have weaknesses and downsides.

                              Compare it to a real life race. I'm new, I'll do two races : one with a veteran, the other with someone that is pretty much as inexperienced as me. Obviously I got totally wrecked on the first race, but it's justified. He knows a lot more and trained hard, but he never needed anything special.
                              On the second race however my opponent get to start two seconds before me, just because he did one race previously. Of course he win, but just because he get an advantage. This is not in any way fair and justifiable.

                              So no matter how it's put, I won't be in favor for any upgrades of any kind in a progression system. There is no way such a system can be fair.

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